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    Discussion "Hair Metal" vs Grunge
    @Stella 1977

    LOL! I understand your pain... Don't take this an insult, but you and I are more alike than you think Tongue

    I'm wondering if you dislike grunge the way I dislike Hair metal. Here is what I mean:

    Hair metal was at a time in my life where I just couldn't understand the visual style, the lyrical content, and lifestyle. It wouldn't click for me so I was not satisfied with it. Grunge was my calling, the music, content was like an answer to my prayers, and it came out in one of my favorite times in my life.

    Read that, then swap hair metal with grunge, and pretty much sounds like your feelings. You may have more of an irritation for grunge since the timeframe was that where grunge was the replacement, but as you've shown, it really didn't. I wonder if you were baffled at your friends that they would actually like grunge... If they were just hopping around to what was popular. Then I can understand your anger (One guy I knew said he HATED Motley Crue, but in front of a girl he was trying to impress, told her he loved them and even LISTENED to a CD with her). ahhh to be young and dumb again.

    The good grunge is gone, as is the hair metal (and off topic, the good days of rap). I'm glad to have people to open my eyes and I realize that some of it was actually decent stuff... I get that grunge can be a bit hard to swallow, but to me so is hair spray.

    I'm guilty of it too... Great hair spray metal songs to listen to I get skeeved out because they look like a tranny circus, lol.

    When you think of grunge, do you have trouble liking it since it feels like it may be a betrayal of the music you love so much?
    (This post was last modified: 04-29-2019, 06:22 PM by LZA.)
    @LZA Do you remember that the dreadful and pejorative term "hair metal" was never, ever, not once used in the eighties/early nineties. It was all Heavy Metal. Rock was never better then at the 80s/early 90s when Heavy Metal bands were ruling the world. When grunge came out, it became fashionable to be average musicians, sing songs about depression and cringe at anyone who had big hair and was actually good at playing an instrument. In that wake of Grunge there were a lot of bands that didn't deserve to be thrown by the wayside.

    I think Nirvana is overrated in the sense that people act like they are the greatest band to have made grunge music when in my eyes Alice in Chains, Sound Garden, Stone Temple Pilots (early albums), Mother Love Bone are much better bands in terms of musical talent. They were also somewhat responsible for taking the guitar solo out of music that had been so prominent in the 70s and 80s and I hate them for that. For me their whole status is massively inflated by this (perceived by many) rebellious rock ' n roll suicide romanticism of Cobain shooting himself dead at the age of 27 after years as a heroin junkie, so it's like that whole James Dean thing (who was a lousy actor who made a few mostly pretty terrible movies that gained huge appeal after his death) and John Belushi (for me a moderately talented comedian) and Sid Vicious (who never had a single musical bone in his body) - you wonder if guys like this had lived they'd all by now be living in disgraceful middle-age, and starring on celebrity ballroom dancing reality shows? As a fan of "hair metal" , I like discussing its rise and fall. I miss the 80s/early 90s good times and good memories. I grew up on heavy metal. love hair metal. There was some good rock music in the 80s-early 90s. Rock music was butchered in 90s by media and people who were jealous of rock music's popularity. Late 80s/early 90s for me was the best years ever
    (05-01-2019, 04:27 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  @LZA  Do you remember that the dreadful and pejorative term "hair metal" was never, ever, not once used in the eighties/early nineties. It was all Heavy Metal.

    I almost wonder if punk rock morphed into grunge like heavy morphed into hairspray. Not as much the different labels, but the evolution of the music.

    (05-01-2019, 04:27 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  In that wake of Grunge there were a lot of bands that didn't deserve to be thrown by the wayside.

    But that didn't happen because of grunge solely. GnR, Metallica and the like survived. I think it was just time for that style to die out. Kinda like Disco having it's run, and Grunge as we knew it did too. Like Mike Tyson... He lost that first match because he self-destructed more so than Douglass beating him. Just like Grunge didn't beat hair spray; it was just hair spray's time.

    (05-01-2019, 04:27 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  I think Nirvana is overrated in the sense that people act like they are the greatest band to have made grunge music when in my eyes Alice in Chains, Sound Garden, Stone Temple Pilots (early albums), Mother Love Bone are much better bands in terms of musical talent. me their whole status is massively inflated by this ...

    They were the first and had a really hot single so they became the face of the genre.

    When you hurt yourself, you don't usually tell someone to get an adhesive bandage, you get a band-aid®, etc. Nirvana is cool, but I agree with you; there are way better bands in the genre than them. Chris Farley is better than Belushi IMHO. Using the name of the next big thing is an easy way to describe that next big thing.

    As far as being middle-aged losers? That's an individual thing.  Brett Michaels did a great job of "rebranding" himself by winning Celebrity Apprentice.

    Take Nirvana: Krist Novoselic, dropped out of the public eye, while Dave Grohl fronts one of the most popular bands out there still. I remember the lead singer of korn saying he didn;t have motivation to write, since he became rich, happy and no longer needed to write his music... Musicians, actors, everyone in all walks of life take to losing famedifferently I guess.
    (This post was last modified: 05-01-2019, 06:28 PM by LZA.)
    @LZA One thing you have to admit; as goofy as the 80's hair band guitarists looked with the big hair, make-up and spandex they spent years mastering their craft with blistering guitar riffs and killer solos whereas Cobain shot up the charts playing rinky-dink power chords and amateurish piss ant guitar solos. Go figure! A few months back I was in a local music store and saw this young 15-ish looking boy playing the guitar intro to Alice Cooper's "Poison" on a Fender Strat. I walked up to him and shook his hand and thanked him for NOT playing that "Come as you are" or "Smells like Teen Spirit" bullshit like most people I hear his age play. Judging from the smile he gave me he knew exactly what I was getting at!

    (This post was last modified: 05-08-2019, 05:10 AM by Stella 1977.)
    LZA liked this post
    @Stella 1977 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA Piss ant guitar solos? That I think is a biased hatred of grunge. I appreciate it since I used to watch the hair metal guitarist gyrate their hips in a lovemaking fashion as they riff. With wannabe "cool yet mean" looks on their faces. As intimidating and badass as they tried to look, it's hard to take someone seriously when they have a pout to their mouth that accentuates the lipstick they wear, and as much as they angrily shake their head, the hair doesn't move because they used 3 cans of aqua net on their upside down, blow-dried hair. They sing about getting chicks, but maybe they are singing about each other since they look like chicks... Seeing that, It's easy to miss the actual music they play.

    The best part of Smells Like Teen Spirit is the guitar solo. And TBH, I think Tom Morello of RATM/Audioslave is such an innovator, I consider him the Jimi Hendrix of this era... The only one In this debate that comes close to your style is Slash... But Slash is good at the normal aspect, while Morello did unthinkable things with the AXE!!! Lol at "AXE"
    wildcard liked this post
    (05-08-2019, 01:58 PM)LZA Wrote:  @Stella 1977 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA Piss ant guitar solos?

    My thoughts exactly.

    Listen to Mike McCready play guitar, and if you can tell me that he is a "piss ant" guitarist, with a straight-face, then you are delusional.
    @LZA You can laugh at the haircuts, videos, outfits, lyrics and album covers and the banality of power chords but there was a reason why this stuff was popular - it had some fine hooks, riffs and great hot singers. I wish Heavy Metal songs could be top 10 hits on the Hot 100 again played along with the pop and rap songs on radio stations. I just wish that rock/metal ruled the world again. Metal's glory years were 1980-1992. I'm a big fan of those years in Metal .'Hair Metal' was SOOO huge that top 10 Billboard charts and MTV most requested videos we're metal almost top to bottom for a few years. That's why I pick up Hair metal over Grunge. I never liked music only to be depressing, pessimist or dull. Never been a fan or existentialism in music

    Of course "serious" magazines and bullshit judgements by the comitee (Rolling Stone and others) media only pick up music to depress like indie, grunge, punk, etc. All Cobain sang about was depression, gloom, doom, misery, angst, despair, loss and a terrible life growing up. Sure, he wasn't the first nor the last to sing songs like that but that was ALL he sang about! Take John Lennon for example; his dad abandoned him and his mom when he was a kid and John was practically destroyed when his mother was killed by an off duty police officer who was driving drunk but looking at his music it wasn't all about doom and gloom......and he didn't commit suicide either. All that alternative music that sounds the same was or is never going to be rock and roll. It was Nirvana who took the spirit of rock and messed it up completely. Kurt Cobain was heavily influenced by the Meat Puppets and the Pixies and told anyone who cared that the Teen Spirit structure came straight from Gouge Away. And the riff from Come As You Are was taken from Killing Joke's Eighties . Nirvana have no meaning behind their lyrics. To quote Kurt himself "a lot of times when I write lyrics it's in the last second because I'm lazy. Then I find myself having to come up with explanations". 99% of the time, Nirvana wrote down random phrases, tied them together and let people make up bullshit about it. Listen to today's commercial rock music and then listen to Nirvana. Any difference? They even wear almost the same clothes. Nirvana influenced those.

    Give me Kiss over Sex Pistols, give me Bon Jovi over The Cure, Def Leppard over Nirvana, Poison over Pixies, Guns n Roses over Sonic Youth, etc. For me the late 80s/early 90s were a great time to be a metal fan. I think it was a lot of fun, got our blood flowing...unlike grunge that came after it, with it's gloomy outlook on life. After 1994 I found it harder to get excited about newer metal bands. I still love and listen to the older 80's and early 90's metal.
    @Stella 1977 It's kinda hard when things get convoluted. Grunge was part of the Alternative scene like Hair spray was part of rock.

    Metallica, Iron Maiden and Megadeth were really the heavy metal... The hybrids mixed between heavy and hair spray were bands like Def Leppard and GnR...While full-blown hair spray was like Ratt and Poison.

    As you said you wished heavy metal can be in the top 100, I guess my thought would be a band you mentioned Bon Jovi... They were hair spray, but nothing about them is metal.

    Just like I see the differences in rock, the same can be for grunge as well... Blink 182 came out in the alternative time, but they are not really grunge... They are like Bon Jovi where they are pop in the music...Kinda like a crossover between alternative and pop. Nirvana started out grunge, but they became popular too, something which Cobain hated. RATM is more of a heavy metal rap band but can be clumped in with alternative since they came out in the time, and they are different than the rock scene of the '80s. Their sound was more "heavy" than I think Motley Crue was...

    As far as hair spray rock, the music stands on its own. And there is some grunge I don't like (Pearn Jam never did it for me). But I think your annoyance of the sad, depressed, suicidal unbathed grudge kids is as relatable to you like the lipstick, spandex wearing, Aquanet dudes Making mean scowls talking about women and parties is to me.

    Nirvana didn't invent meaningless lyrics or drug influenced songs... I'm still trying to figure out I Am The Walrus by the Beatles. One band you mentioned that I could never get, and I hate all their songs, is KISS. KISS isn't heavy or hair spray metal.. to me, it's KRAP
    The only hair spray/heavy metal band I actually liked t the time was Twisted Sister. I just recently watched Animal house, So I realized the guy in the videos was Neidermeier. YOu could actually believe their lyrics since they actually looked scary Tongue

    Again, I understand your feelings though. Your feelings about what grunge did to Hair spray is the same as my feelings about how old rap was replaced by new rap. It morphed with the times, but that doesn't mean I have to like it...
    (This post was last modified: 05-10-2019, 12:04 PM by LZA.)
    @LZA You can hate the music and their looks, but your statement is just flat out wrong. That's a very broad generalization and pretty ridiculous. So every 80's band that qualifies as hair metal only cares about drugs and girls and being famous? Yeah, right. I was in high school 1991-95, and we called it Metal. It was always good to have a few trash metal albums around for when boys would come around. But if they weren't around it was Poison, Winger, Bon Jovi, Guns n Roses, Cinderella, Warrant, Slaughter, Def Leppard, etc. Hair metal was popular as soon as Metal Health and, to a slightly lesser extent, Pyromania were released - that was early 1983. Hair metal reigned for a decade or more. Glam metal is a subgenre of heavy metal, but still metal. As i said many times, the term 'Hair Metal' only came about as a derogatory term so people could put down a band, a sound, or a look they didn't like or understand. In the "definitive metal family tree" of his documentary Metal: A Headbanger's Journey, anthropologist Sam Dunn differentiates pop metal, which includes bands like Def Leppard, Europe, and Whitesnake, from glam metal bands that include Mötley Crüe, Twisted Sister and Poison.
    Hair metal is another of those stupid terms that was applied to the genre YEARS after the fact, most likely by hipster journalists. In the 80s/ early 90s it was METAL. All hair metal is heavy metal.
    Judas Priest was really the first band to define heavy metal, in both music and image. Rob Halford basically invented the image of what people would equate with heavy metal, and musically, Priest was the first to pretty much disregard blues influences for the most part, which separates them from Sabbath, Zeppelin etc. And nobody could credibly say that Judas Priest is not a real Heavy Metal band. In the '70s there was no distinction made between heavy metal and hard rock and any band that featured any aggressive guitar riffs could get hit with the tag. Bands like Heart and Queen were getting called metal, which is kinda ridiculous in retrospect.

    That said, it is unfair to say that the difference is that Hair Metal is about image and Heavy Metal is not. Just different images. The Twisted crew have never done a thing for me. I feel Ratt, Dokken, Skid Row, Whitesnake, Def Leppard, Poison, Winger and White Lion (to name a few), all had far more talent. Dee Snider is also too self-promoting (and very overrated) for my taste as well. Everytime I see him hosting some VH1 special, he appears to constantly plug away at his very small piece of 80's history. All IMHO, of course.

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