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    Hair Metal
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    Discussion "Hair Metal" vs Grunge
    @Stella 1977

    @wildcard hit it on the head, and that's OK. I really appreciate your passion for your music; I was trying to be super careful not to let my emotions overrun my thought process (which can happen often). As much as you love your bands I loved mine. I love Nirvana, but they don't mean as much emotionally to me as Alice in Chains (probably my favorite), STP, Soundgarden, and others. So I can see where you would wonder why they are the face of grunge. I do lobe a lot of their stuff, other stuff just didn't click with me.

    But the good news is, it really didn't die if we keep it close to our hearts...Who knows, if hair spray rock ws allowed to continue, you may have not liked the direction it would have gone.

    I give that example as a personal experience for me when I think of rap... It should have died out when the mumble rappers, post-2010 crap started coming around... Your hair spray genre may not be recognizable to you like rap is for me...
    (This post was last modified: 04-15-2019, 09:42 PM by LZA.)
    @LZA In the broadest possible sense there are two "schools" of heavy metal pre-1980s (kind of like how there are two schools of jazz tenor playing, you're either a Hawkins disciple or a Lester Young disciple).

    Theres the European school: Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Budgie, Rainbow, Judas Priest, etc.
    There's the US school: Van Halen, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Kiss, Alice Cooper, etc.

    In the 80s the stuff generally considered to be "heavy metal" was bands influenced by the European school and the slightly later NWOBHM offshoot. This extended into newer genres like thrash, doom, power metal (the 80s definition of the term, not the modern definition of the term), etc. Thrash then later begat further offshoots like death metal.

    The "hair metal" stuff was generally bands influenced by the US school...and mostly Van Halen to be honest. The US school to me has always been right on that cusp of hard rock/heavy metal, generally being more focused on upbeat party rock.

    The influence of Led Zeppelin kind of falls somewhere in between the two schools as Plant's stage presence was a popular influential thing for hair metal vocalists to emulate...if you could mix Plant and Steven Tyler together you basically have every frontman for every commercial metal act during the entire decade.

    This is of course an over-simplification, but I think it works from a cursory standpoint. If you read interviews with Motley Crue or Ratt during the 80s they always listed bands like Kiss and Aerosmith as primary influences. If you read interviews with bands like Metallica or Slayer they usually mentioned Sabbath, Deep Purple and all the NWOBHM bands. Anybody who thinks hair metal bands didn't care about the music is just ignorant. They cared no more or less than musicians in any other rock genre. Not saying it was all gold, but the implication that because of their appearance they didn't care about the songs is just asinine. Any thought that musicians in thrash or speed metal or just rock bands didn't care about the way they looked is also completely misguided. FWIW, as someone who grew up as a metal girl in the 80s/early 90s the genres weren't nearly as defined as they are now. We'd listen to Metallica or Iron Maiden or Megadeth and then something on the poppier end of the scale - Crue, Warrant, Slaughter, Cinderella, whatever. Yeah some people weren't into the extremes on either end (Firehouse or King Diamond, for example), but for the most part metal was metal and it was all rock.

    @LZA They make it seem like once Nirvana's Nevermind was released it literally shattered the glam/sunset strip sound which is complete bullshit. Guns N Roses' Use your illusions were released around the same time as Nevermind and they shitted on Nirvana. It wasn't until early in 1993 when it Grunge started to outrun the Glam L.A sound. Def Leppard released Adrenalize in 1992 that was arguably selling more than Nirvana. I bought Adrenalize at a midnight sale on it's release day. It debuted at # 1 in the states and sold over 3 million. Let's Get Rocked is an earworm that was in my head probably all of 1992 as it was everywhere. Tonight, Stand Up, and Tear It Down are my favorites on the album. I've always loved it, even if not as much as some of their other albums. Given they were dealing with the loss of one of their founding guitarists, the pressure to compete with the success of Hysteria, and that it came out at the height of the grunge movement, it's speaks volumes that the album came out as well as it did - both artistically, and commercially. I was 15 in 1992 and in high school, and it was very popular. Nirvana and the like came across as very amateurish at that time. Something any kid in school could do in their garage. My high school was all about the Use Your Illusions and the Black Album at the time, but Soundgarden and AIC were getting up there. I really liked Adrenalize when it came out, I still like it, but obviously it doesn't measure up to the standard set by Pyromania and even more so, Hysteria. It did sound like Hysteria part II, but without the refinement and finesse of its predecessor.

    I actually think it had been regarded a bit higher (and sold better), had it come out a year earlier before Metallica, Use Your Illusion and Nirvana and what have you. Still, it spent 5 weeks atop the Billboard Top 200, shipped triple platinum in two months or so, spawned five Top 100 hit singles and saw the band's longest ever tour (241 dates playing to over two Million people). Ended up selling 3 million in the states and not all of that was in the month of April. I think it sounded current throughout the summer and fall. Make Love Like A Man got heavy rotation on Mtv that summer and Have You Ever Needed Someone So Bad got a lot of radio play that Fall. Bon Jovi's Keep the Faith album came out in Nov and went double platinum into 1993. Of course these figures are far less than Leppard and Jovi had sold with previous outings and it was clear only their strongest fans were buying these but at least they still had that base.

    @LZA In reality back in 1992 there was very little difference between a band like Skid Row and a band like Alice in Chains (esp. given AIC's roots). And Pearl Jam's guitarists were avowed Aerosmith fanatics. MAN IN THE BOX is my favorite Alice in Chains song.

    (This post was last modified: 04-16-2019, 06:23 AM by Stella 1977.)
    wildcard and LZA liked this post
    I'm just gonna leave this here...

    @Stella 1977

    I can tell how much it means to you. Me making fun of the girly hairstyles and spandex is my issue. Like I said it's a mental thing with me that listening to that music reminds me of a time when I didn't fit in, whereas Grunge made me feel like a part of something. That to me (and a lot of others) is partly why I think Grunge/Alternative became so popular.

    I think the bands that persevered, like Metallica, GnR, and the like were less into the look and more about the music. Metallica was more a reminder of the old style metal, like Iron Maiden, Sabbath (although I think Ozzy wore makeup too). I wonder if the Overrepresentation of the Hair Spray look may have been what did them in... Adversely, Maybe forcing the depressed, no bath taking super grunge style is what turned others off from bands like Nirvana... Does that make sense? The music on its own was really good, but the packaging was unpalatable. Even if GnR wore makeup, it wasn't overdone to the point where you said "why is that guy wearing makeup", kinda like "Why do those guys from Nirvana look like they never had baths..."

    When I was younger, I was naive enough to not like something just by the looks of it. As far as the music goes, I think Grunge racks as hard as some metal bands, and hair spray bands rock just as hard as grunge, but due to the presentation and content, I just related to grunge more... The older I get, the more I'm open to new music, and songs I hated for really no logical reason are pertty good, and it's a shame I missed out.

    As far as your facts. I can't argue, I agree 100%. And I agree that metal is more the euro style and the Americans took from that... Well, if they didn't they were certainly influenced by the euro bands...

    As far as the Nirvana Killing glam rock... I think of it this way. I love salmon and I love steak. Hair spray is represented by the steak that I've been eating all my life, and all lI know. The GnR Use Your Illusion IS in my album collection and is undoubtedly one of my favorites from that genre. IT's the best-cooked steak I ever tasted, so to speak. Nirvana is like the first time I ever had salmon. The steak may have been better prepared than the salmon, but the salmon is so good and so new, I'd eat that more...Nirvana may not even be as good as AIC, but it's still different. I'm sorry to use such a simplistic example to try to relay how I think, but I'm being as descriptive as my intelligence lever allows. It was the different and newness of the style that caused the change... After tasting different kinds of salmon, you'll note that the Nirvana dish may have been bad in comparison to other salmon... I can see why you think they got undue credit. In this case it didn;t have to be the best, just the first...Kinda like the iPhone...
    @LZA When grunge came in, rather than it being more about the music, it became even more about "the look". Musicianship and musicality went totally down the toilet. I admit that i miss the 80's/early90's with a passion! I was a teen in this era LATE80S/EARLY90S. Everyone was happy.....the music was happy and upbeat.....and the occasional power ballad to get over you first boyfriend. Great music not to remind you of your problems.....but to make you feel good, laugh, and enjoy life! Teen Spirit hit in the fall of 1991. It wasn't an overnight thing, but 1992 saw a quick rise in the grunge bands. I remember noticing how depressing music became around that time. Around 1994, I remember Korn, Wu Tang Clan, Dr Dre, Tool, and Nine Inch Nails on heavy rotation on MTV. The 90s became an angry time, and many of those grungies died of heroin overdoses. Go to a bar today and what do you hear? Poison, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue etc. Party songs. You won't be hearing Nirvana covers. And everyone wore flannels and wallowed in self pity back then.

    How do we go from bands like Guns N Roses, Metallica, Iron Maiden, Motley Crue doing sold out stadium gigs of tens of thousands to not even finding a mention of metal in popular culture? A lot of modern metal has just gotten too radio unfriendly to get a lot of mainstream attention and air-time. Screaming vocals turn a lot of people off.
    80's/early90's were golden age of metal? There were a ton of good metal bands in the 80's. Abundance of bands were releasing almost consistently awesome albums. The 80's/early 90's was the best time for metal because it was everywhere, the age was metal. Stadium tours, albums in the charts, the era of high sales, magazines, fan clubs. So many amazing underground bands were still out there. Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, Poison, Def Leppard, Guns n Roses, Metallica, Bon Jovi, Dio and Ozzy were kings! .

    I resent that Nirvana were practically overnight anointed the teacher's pet of MTV and the music industry, at the expense of a lot of other Heavy Metal bands who were instantly blackballed. This was a major change from the 80's/early 90s where MTV catered to all different audiences a little bit with their programming and specialty shows like Yo MTV Raps and Headbangers Ball. Then MTV instantly threw that all away when they crowned Nirvana. God, they still make the emergence of Nirvana seem like the Beatles appearing on Ed Sullivan or some shit and sorry folks I just do not see it. I hated the way the situation was handled and the way the band was managed and propped up and I always will.And so many bands followed the Nirvana formula. Guitar starts off clean, the singer sounds like he just woke up and has a hangover, then the distortion kicks in and all you hear is screaming screaming and more screaming. The only guitar solo sounds like someone is castrating a bull, and you can't understand a word the singer is saying. Weird Al did a perfect video of smells like Nirvana. Even tho he has just joking around like he always does he was telling the truth in that video. After grunge exploded it carried over into post grunge then to nu metal. And because of that that's why we have rap,pop,and indie style of music are on the charts. Glam metal musicians were honest. At least they could play guitar. What's the last song that even resembles a Rock anthem?

    @LZA Since Kurt Cobain's death, Nirvana has attained a legendary sort of status that they definitely didn't have when KC was alive, and it has also eclipsed how big GnR were at their peak. Guns'n'roses were the bigger band. they had bigger concerts and the hype around Use Your Illusion albums was HUGE. At the time, GnR was treated as a superstar band. I was a teen in 1992 (the year both UYI1&2 and Nevermind had been out for a while) and in my class G'N R (as well as Def Leppard) was massive with a bunch of hits while Nirvana was a cool side-thing with one big hit that most people liked but not obsessed over. That's how I remember the moment of the releases. A couple of years later G N' R was no longer cool and Nirvana was the ultimate cool. During the time period, 1991-1994, Guns N' Roses sold more records and sold more tickets than Nirvana. And that's even with GnR being dormant from 1994 on. GnR headlined stadiums on their own, Nirvana played stadiums at a few festivals with 25 other bands. GnR played 4 sold out nights at the Forum in 1991, Nirvana was playing clubs at the time. Even at Nirvana's height I don't think they sold half as many tickets as Guns N' Roses. Nirvana played clubs, 3,000-5,000 seat venues, and some arenas on their last tour. GnR were playing huge arenas and stadiums at the same time, with many multiple dates in big cities. And I'm just using GnR as an example, there were other bands at the time that were just as big. GNR were bigger back then, no doubt. GNR sold more records and I think had a more worldwide appeal than Nirvana. Going on that alone Guns N' Roses was the bigger band and much more larger than life than Nirvana. Anyway, the "Illusion" period was positively huge for Guns N Roses - much, much bigger than even the Appetite era.

    GnR were playing stadiums while Nirvana played arenas and large theatres. They fronted every magazine , every time you put MTV on it was G n R. Guns' songs, musicianship, diversity and raw talent were superior to Nirvana, plus they appealed to a wider audience. They were rooted in Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith, so many older generation classic rocks fans also loved them, not just the kids. Back in 1992, GNR was the biggest band in the world, period. Nirvana was just the quintesential hipster band and after Kurt comitted suicide they obtained immortal status. After '94 GNR stopped being relevant, while Nirvana was still talked about a lot. But GNR sold more records and tickets and were more "mainstream" .

    (This post was last modified: 04-16-2019, 05:47 PM by Stella 1977.)
    (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  @LZA When grunge came in, rather than it being more about the music, it became even more about "the look".

    See, that's how I think of hairspray. The music was the music, but they went overboard with the silliness...

    (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  and the occasional power ballad to get over you first boyfriend.
    I can't relate to that, LOL!
    (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  Great music not to remind you of your problems.....but to make you feel good, laugh, and enjoy life!

    Grunge did that for me. I enjoyed life more because the music was better, and I was reassured I wasn't alone.

    (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  they still make the emergence of Nirvana seem like the Beatles appearing on Ed Sullivan or some shit and sorry folks I just do not see it.
    It was such a switch, it was in the HoF as a song that changed rock. We can argue that some hair spray song may have been better, but at that time they were all pretty much the same they were all vanilla. The Beatles sound was like nothing ever heard, as was Nirvana...Kinda like When Disco died... Its time was over and there are those out there still pissed about that.

    (04-16-2019, 05:09 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  Glam metal musicians were honest.
    Eh... I may have to dispute that... They sang about happy things that they may have liked to have happened, or those select few cool people experienced. But nothing is more real than grunge. You may not like the depression, but for the most part, you can't fake it... I'll admit there were bandwagon jumpers that tried to sing sad to make money, just like I'm sure there were grungy types IRL that sang about hair spray stuff since it made more money at the time... Taylor Swift is an example of that type of thinking. I love Taylor Swift as a pop star (shut up @wildcard, lol) but she was a country star, who grew exponentially when she turned to a pop star. So I'll agree there was realism in some of the hair spray stuff, just like the realism in Grunge, but there were fakes in both styles as well...

    Rap is probably the biggest in fakery though. People in rented cars that are probably homeless... And Mc Hammer turning gangster was almost laughable. I guess the fake people are in every style... Not just grunge or Hair spray...
    (This post was last modified: 04-16-2019, 05:51 PM by LZA.)
    Stella 1977 liked this post

    I'm not trying to troll you, but this is a list of some of my favorite Nnirvana songs... If you want to watch it, you see they do have a range and some actual substance.

    For some reason, Something in The Way should have been higher on the list. I know your issues with them is more from how they took over everything, which is of course fine. But maybe you would actually like some of the songs if you haven't heard them already. Again I regret not giving hair rock a chance earlier... NOt saying that's what you are doing here (or that it's wrong if you were). Not saying anything really Smile

    I'm just trying to share my appreciation for them I guess...

    PS: I know how you feel about Teen Spirit, so you can stop the list at #1, LOL!

    Also, after more research, you and Kurt have more in common that you think... He's admitted to hating Smells Like Teen Spirit. He said he tried to rip off the Pixies.

    It's also said that the band hated playing it so they would do it badly, as they felt like sellouts because the song attracted a new audience...

    A lot of bands hate their own stuff, but this is interesting...
    (This post was last modified: 04-16-2019, 10:10 PM by LZA.)
    @LZA I admit to you i kinda like "Heart-Shaped Box"

    @LZA Also i like this song.

    (This post was last modified: 04-17-2019, 11:40 AM by Stella 1977.)
    @LZA THIS SONG REALLY ROCKS!!! I remember when this song hit MTV in 1992, these guys were so awesome now no one from my generation even remembers Hardline. This song was the last great single of the hair band era, struggling to breathe under the weight of the depressing and un-melodic thuds of grunge. The record companies pushed grunge on us.

    (This post was last modified: 04-18-2019, 04:32 PM by Stella 1977.)
    (04-18-2019, 04:32 PM)Stella 1977 Wrote:  @LZA THIS SONG REALLY ROCKS!!!  I remember when this song hit MTV in 1992, these guys were so awesome now no one from my generation even remembers Hardline. This song was the last great single of the hair band era, struggling to breathe under the weight of the depressing and un-melodic thuds of  grunge. The record companies pushed grunge on us.

    Actually, I've never heard that song, or heard of them...Thanks for sharing; it was a pretty good song.

    Another thing I noticed between this and some grunge is although the energy can be comparable, it's expended in different ways... Grunge goes crazy, destroys their shit just to burn off steam or to throw fits, so to speak. Hair spray dances, super accentuate the instrument playing, flips their hair in a way that they kinda say "YEAHHHHHHH, LET'S ROOOCK!!! Tongue . It seems like you can see the hair spray energy is meant to be more fun...

    And you mentioned MTV a few times. I can understand your frustration; it's a commercial entity that just tries to bring popular stuff... Hell, they don't even really play MUSIC anymore... So they kinda sold out... I thinkMTV2 is actually more like MTV original..
    (This post was last modified: 04-18-2019, 06:19 PM by LZA.)

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