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Ethics: the douchbaggery we have to deal with.
#1
I have a question for you guys: What do you consider ethics, and what are some unethical situations you've seen in the past?

Is ethics a relative term or does it have a set of rules?

I'll try to keep this post short, and most of you guys know my story by now from reading other posts I've made.

I've had the same job over a decade, in that time I've worked for 2 people.

Without getting into too many details (you should have seen how much I deleted). My 2nd boss was an insecure bitch who had to always knock people down (verbally to their face & shit talk behind their back). It got so bad that management told other departments to not seek her advice to questions, to go to the main boss, or others (it was brought up in a meeting), and I became in charge of all the training of the new members. I guess they didn’t know what to do with her, she’d been there for 25 years plus (in the same position). She got away with terrorizing any new person she could ( I know because these people would come to me, sometimes crying most times, doubting themselves and their skills). It was so much so I became in charge of training all people, and being the main contact of other depts. (aside from the lead boss, of course).
When the lead boss left to become a VP at another company (he got a huge raise, we were all happy for him), the #1 job was up for grabs. At this time, I was considered an equal with this person. People would ask me to apply for the job but I knew I couldn’t , because she didn’t have the capability to take direction from me. She’d undermine me at every turn. So she got the job (at the disapproval of the senior management/president, but she was the only applicant). The problem was when anyone would complain, it would be swept under the rug. It just seemed they didn’t know what to do with her. If she found out teammates went to the sup & complained, the they got the biggest bitchslap with her pimphand. I know this, I was slapped a few times myself…So I can’t say I didn’t try.
Working under her was tough. She was more of a micromanager while my 1st boss gave me free reign. No prob, I’m a top performer, my job as backup is to make her life easier. So the job went well (she actually gave me the best review I ever had despite the fact she hated me). What I didn’t like was she kept her shit talking attitude when she became sup. Even a shithead LZA knows when you escalate to a leadership position, you have to change some behaviors. She tell everyone, “oh, so & so called in, he sounded drunk” or “I think so and so is stupid” you get it. I’m gonna stop here because it’s getting long, but many other variations of what I would consider unethical behavior ran rampant when I was there…I’m sure it still does to this day.
You know my saga, so I won’t repeat, it, but I got a few contact by teammates since my leaving the position, telling me that my position was posted. One teammate in particular , whom I considered (and also trained; she later became a sup in another dept.). told me that some of her reports want to apply for my position. She told me she so want to tell these people not to apply, and tell them how this person is. My friends exact words were “I have good people, I don’t want these people going through the same thing we went through”. Obviously she didn’t say anything, as she was ethical.
I posted this for 2 reasons:
1. To get your opinion on what you think ethics are, and maybe some of your own stories.
2. In the case a reader of this post (registered member or guest) is going through their own version of this type of “office politics” or anything in general, to know they are not alone.
This is not a post for me to whine. I did the best I could and my job is completed. I was just curious.
Holy shit! I chopped about 3/4 of this to reduce the size & it's still long...Sorry
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#2
(06-12-2013, 12:28 AM)LaZyA553dde5tr0yer Wrote: When the lead boss left to become a VP at another company (he got a huge raise, we were all happy for him), the #1 job was up for grabs. At this time, I was considered an equal with this person. People would ask me to apply for the job but I knew I couldn’t , because she didn’t have the capability to take direction from me. She’d undermine me at every turn. So she got the job (at the disapproval of the senior management/president, but she was the only applicant).

well, you, nor can the company's upper management can complain because all of you were in a position to do something about it and chickened out. from experience, here's what i would have done...

in your place... taken the position and fired her immediately. the reason doesn't matter but make it sound good and make sure there is some credibility... violation of labor laws, work performance, insubordination, harassment, etc. just gotta make sure it's legit so you can't get sued for wrongful termination and make sure it's her fault so you don't have to pay unemployment.

as upper management, i wouldn't have placed her in that position nor would i have considered you for it as your lack of applying for the position was indicative of your inability to occupy the position. so, that leaves hiring outside the company which is an easy enough task to do... but it wasn't done... that means restructuring with the personnel available could have been an option... but that wasn't done either. seeing how they placed someone ineffectual in that lead position makes me wonder if that section of the company was even necessary to begin with.

this is a good example as to why businesses aren't as successful as they could be.

as far as ethics are concerned... i don't see how it relates to this.
"Yeah. I understand the mechanics of it, shithead. I just don't understand how this is any less retarded than what I'm suggesting." - Kiley; Housebound.
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#3
(06-12-2013, 12:45 AM)sporkium Wrote:
(06-12-2013, 12:28 AM)LaZyA553dde5tr0yer Wrote: When the lead boss left to become a VP at another company (he got a huge raise, we were all happy for him), the #1 job was up for grabs. At this time, I was considered an equal with this person. People would ask me to apply for the job but I knew I couldn’t , because she didn’t have the capability to take direction from me. She’d undermine me at every turn. So she got the job (at the disapproval of the senior management/president, but she was the only applicant).

well, you, nor can the company's upper management can complain because all of you were in a position to do something about it and chickened out. from experience, here's what i would have done...

as upper management, i wouldn't have placed her in that position nor would i have considered you for it as your lack of applying for the position was indicative of your inability to occupy the position. so, that leaves hiring outside the company which is an easy enough task to do... but it wasn't done... that means restructuring with the personnel available could have been an option... but that wasn't done either. seeing how they placed someone ineffectual in that lead position makes me wonder if that section of the company was even necessary to begin with.

this is a good example as to why businesses aren't as successful as they could be.

as far as ethics are concerned... i don't see how it relates to this.

Actually, I did try to go to my superiors when I was a subordinate and got shut down.

If I took the position, no way I could have fired her. If they didn't do anything all the years before me, why were they going to fire her with me.

I thought of that and agree. I'm a good 2nd, but I'd never be a good in a leadership position. My "nice guy" and somewhat timid personality would get ripped apart by people who would walk on me. Trust me, your not telling me something I don't know. Also, my above statement about being in the position and not being able to fire her shows I'm not qualified.

I guess the ethics question would be: If my friend who is a sup did tell her reports not to apply, would that be unethical? Also I should have included this. My 2nd boss would get rid of any resume of people she didn't like or run to the dup and say "don't hire so and so, then doctor up some crap to get her way, not hiring that person just because she didn't like that (keeping in mind that person was fully capable and deserved a chance.

At first, due to system issues and the training of other depts. we were needed, but now, not so much. I'm glad to be out as I believe we'll be completely phased out soon.
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#4
no, if you took the position, you could have fired her... or at the very least requested that she be fired. that's the way the world is supposed to work: you suck at your job, you get fired.

...

your friend the supervisor told her subordinates not to apply? is that ethical? huh? i don't understand what you are saying... but, yeah.. sounds unethical... and gay.

if your boss got rid of resumes (illegal) and discriminated against applicants (illegal) then yes, that is unethical... which is even more of a reason why she should have been fired.
"Yeah. I understand the mechanics of it, shithead. I just don't understand how this is any less retarded than what I'm suggesting." - Kiley; Housebound.
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#5
(06-12-2013, 01:08 AM)sporkium Wrote: your friend the supervisor told her subordinates not to apply? is that ethical? huh? i don't understand what you are saying... but, yeah.. sounds unethical... and gay.

if your boss got rid of resumes (illegal) and discriminated against applicants (illegal) then yes, that is unethical... which is even more of a reason why she should have been fired.

I appreciate your input. Let me clarify:

No, my friend the boss did not say anything to her subordinates, she wanted to. My question which you've answered is that saying something would be unethical. Just that (coming from a personality type like mine), kinda fucked up to let anyone go into the "lions den"... I never would have told anyone not to apply either, but like I said. I knew my personality & place, I was a 2nd in command. In a way happy not making big decisions.

Agree, all illegal acts, but it was done in a way where it could never be proven.
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#6
(06-12-2013, 01:14 AM)LaZyA553dde5tr0yer Wrote: I knew my personality & place, I was a 2nd in command. In a way happy not making big decisions.

yeah, this goes back to your company not being as profitable as it could have been. the majority of companies are plagued by ineffectual managers and now it makes sense why they didn't hire out of house for that position.

(06-12-2013, 01:14 AM)LaZyA553dde5tr0yer Wrote: Agree, all illegal acts, but it was done in a way where it could never be proven.

then you fire her in a similar manner... but it's not a task for ineffectual managers.

people love saying that they want to work for a company that will never place profits over the value of an employee, blah-blah-blah... that's all good and fine but when your company's performance is stagnant because you have qualified employees occupying key upward mobility positions that don't want to progress and other employees who are only being promoted out of lack of talent... that company is a failure.
"Yeah. I understand the mechanics of it, shithead. I just don't understand how this is any less retarded than what I'm suggesting." - Kiley; Housebound.
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#7
Another thing she used to do (now I'm just venting) is change department procedures when she saw fit. So Someone would get marked down in their quality, but a few months later, some one else would get no errors, for really no reason at all. When I started doing the checking, I kept a log & copy of our practices. Another thing is it was understood that quality was to be on a random basis, but she would fish for work & error out a person, if it was their turn (by that I mean if that person somehow annoyed her).

See Spork, sounds like if you were my manager we'd get along well. I don't think there's any shame in being a 2nd in command, and it sounds like your expectations would be made crystal clear. I can deal with that, not coming into work thinking, what's changed this time, is something I just couldn't deal with.
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#8
doubtful... i probably would have either transferred you somewhere else or had you separated from the company in favor of a prospect that was open to future advancement and development... those types of employees are way more valuable... and i get to avoid a bottleneck with staffing issues.
"Yeah. I understand the mechanics of it, shithead. I just don't understand how this is any less retarded than what I'm suggesting." - Kiley; Housebound.
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#9
OPs 2nd boss sounds more like a whiny 2-faced bitch who was being unprofessional, rather than unethical.

A while back when I worked for the man, I was put in a recruiting position where I got to see an applicant's personal details and their full criminal history. One guy applied for a position and he was absolutely perfect for the job. I got to know him quite intimately during the vetting procedure, but sadly, towards the end, it was decided there was no way on earth this man could be employed because of his wife.

She had a secret habit of giving herself a 5-fingered discount everywhere she went, and ended up with a criminal record for shoplifting. The poor guy didn't have a clue about any of this. We were all gutted, rules are rules, the guy would have been offered a position if it weren't for his tealeaf wife. As expected, he was baffled as to why he failed to get in, and convinced himself it was because he had a minor infraction of being drunk and disordely at age 18 and mooning in public. Me breaking my ethics code would have been me telling him he failed because of his loopy spouse, but that wouldn't have achieved anything apart from me being fired off.
"everyone wants to win but no one wants to drink a bucket of sj's piss" - bob5695
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#10
I have to agree with Spud.

If you took the job, you could have either fired her or ask to have her fired.

If neither of those worked, you could have yelled and screamed at her and called her names in front of the entire org and kept on doing that until ...

Either she quit or you were fired.

What other choice would you have?

ETA: Here is one alternative. You could call her into your office first thing in the morning. Then put your feet up and tell her you called her in to discuss her problem attitudes and behaviors.

Then spend at least an hour talking at her and insulting her and calling her names and other similar stuff. Then let her go for half an hour and call her back into your office for another one hour session.

Repeat that as many times as you can stand it. It could be fun to repeatedly tell her that you think she is a real dirtbag asshole bitch (and similar names) over and over again.

Don't you think you might enjoy that?
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